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Michel Bauwens: Just a moment. My mouse isn't working. Yeah, all right. I don't know what's happening anyway.
Claire: Oh, it's okay. I think Jialin is joining us. Let me see what's going on here—do I need to approve something? How are you?
Michel Bauwens: I'm fine. I just don’t know why my mouse isn’t working. I just changed the battery, so I don’t know what’s going on. Anyway, I can use my pad, so it’s okay. I’m pretty good. I was ill last week, but I’m better now. You know, it’s very polluted here in Chiang Mai.
Claire: Oh, how come?
Michel Bauwens: They burn the forest every year for industrial corn production. The farmers make a lot of money when they burn the forest because mushrooms and other things grow, and these big agro-industrial concerns are very powerful. If nobody provides an alternative, the practice just continues. The middle class in the cities hates it, but if you simply tell the farmers to stop, they’d be on the streets protesting. So it’s a difficult problem to solve.
Jialin Li: Yeah.
Michel Bauwens: And it’s getting worse every year.
Claire: Yeah.
Michel Bauwens: Hello.
Claire: Hello.
Jialin Li: Hey.
Michel Bauwens: Hello.
Jialin Li: Hi. For some reason, Google Meet didn't allow me to join earlier.
Claire: Oh yeah. I saw that you had applied to join the call, but then it disappeared. Anyway, I’m glad we got it sorted. It’s great to have you both on this call—I think it’ll be very useful for you two to know each other. Maybe, Michel and Jialin, you can introduce yourselves to each other.
Michel Bauwens: Okay, I’ll start. I’m originally from Belgium, but I’ve been living in Chiang Mai for 20 years now. I have a Thai family here. I’m the founder of the P2P Foundation, which is where Satoshi Nakamoto published his white paper. There’s some debate about whether I was the first or second person to tweet about Bitcoin, but I was on it very early. That said, I’m not a technical person—I focus more on digital anthropology and sociology. I study practices, governance, and methods. I’ve been doing this for over 15 years, mainly through a wiki: wiki.p2pfoundation.net, which is widely used by researchers and activists in free software, open design, and related fields.
I’m also closely connected to HCT, the Pop-Up Village People, and the Network Nations Workshop, which we organize periodically. My role is primarily that of an observer, and I try to build bridges between different groups.
Right now, my focus is on launching the Cosmo Local Foundation. I’ll start fundraising for it in the coming weeks. The idea is to connect local productive communities—those engaged in regenerative, circular, bioregional, organic, and renewable projects—with the coordination capacity of Web3. The goal is to create knowledge commons for these communities, develop protocols for cooperation, and facilitate capital flows.
Currently, we have a bioregional financing facility, and my aim is to develop a Cosmo Local financing facility. The core idea is that if you’re engaged in local initiatives, you’re horizontally connected to other bioregional actors while also being virtually connected to Cosmo Local. This allows people doing similar work around the world to support one another and collaborate on innovation.
Jialin Li: Yeah, that makes sense.
Michel Bauwens: So that’s what I’m working on right now.
Jialin Li: Okay, great. Thanks.
By the way, is it correct to call you Michel?
Michel Bauwens: Yes, Michel is fine. And I’ll need to learn to pronounce your name correctly—is it Jialin?
Jialin Li: Yes, that’s perfect. Very nice to meet you. I’m Jialin, and I currently wear two hats. I’m the co-founder of HA2 Protocol, where I mainly handle the technical side, and I’m also an Assistant Professor at a university in Singapore. Have you been to Singapore before?
Michel Bauwens: Yes, I’ve been a few times. I used to know Jack Liu at NTU—I haven’t spoken to him recently, but he was working on platform co-ops and is an expert on Módzi, which I want to read but haven’t gotten to yet.
Jialin Li: Oh, interesting. NTU and NUS have a friendly rivalry here. I joined NUS about four years ago.
Michel Bauwens: By the way, Jack might have switched to NUS. I’d have to check—he’s been at both universities, but I’m not sure which was first and which was second. I haven’t talked to him in a while.
Jialin Li: Yes, he’s been in both schools, so that makes sense.
Jialin Li: Okay, sure. So, I graduated with a PhD in the U.S., primarily focusing on distributed systems research. After that, I joined NUS as a faculty member, diving deeper into decentralized infrastructure research. This covers a broad range of topics, including consensus, communication, storage, and computation—essentially every part of the stack.
I also co-founded a research lab with my colleague Akasha about three years ago.
Michel Bauwens: I’ve come across that name—Akasha.
Jialin Li: Yes.
Claire: He was also part of my life during our co-living and co-working experiences when we met.
Michel Bauwens: For some reason, I thought Akasha was a female name.
Jialin Li: It’s actually a Sanskrit name, commonly used in India. The male version is typically Akash, but I’m not an expert in Hindi or Sanskrit.
Michel Bauwens: Neither am I. In French and other Latin languages, names ending in 'A' are usually feminine, while those ending in 'O' tend to be masculine. That’s probably why I assumed it was a female name.
Jialin Li: That makes sense. It’s similar in some Indian names—for example, Naveen is male, while Naveena is female.
Michel Bauwens: Yes, it’s a pattern across Spanish, Italian, and French as well—like Alexandra and Alexander.
Jialin Li: Exactly. Anyway, Akasha is male. Together, we co-founded the lab, and one of our research projects later evolved into the Haytu Protocol. Our research lab is called Advaita Labs, and Haytu Protocol is our go-to-market initiative.
Michel Bauwens: I see. I have to admit, I’m not very technical. I tried reading about the Haytu Protocol, but I struggled to grasp what problem it is addressing and how it offers a solution. If you could explain it in simple terms—maybe at a beginner’s level—that would help me understand.
Jialin Li: Absolutely. I can start with the philosophical idea behind Haytu before diving into the market aspect. This will provide a foundational understanding before we discuss real-world applications.
The core idea behind Haytu is about discovering relationships between different ideas or events in a decentralized world. Blockchain already establishes a kind of decentralized relation, but it is quite limited—it primarily serves as a ledger recording transactions in sequence. That’s what allows for digital currency and finance.
Haytu aims to go beyond that. It seeks to map relationships between all kinds of events, not just transactions—such as human interactions, collaboration, and even intelligence-driven activities like AI interactions.
Michel Bauwens: So, would you say it’s event-centric? And is an event broader than just a transaction?
Jialin Li: Yes, exactly. An event is much more than a transaction. For instance, our conversation right now consists of multiple events: I speak, you respond, we discuss ideas, and perhaps we even reach some form of agreement. These are all decentralized events occurring in real-time.
At the end of our conversation, we might decide on an action—that’s a form of subjective consensus, which differs from financial transactions but is still a crucial part of decentralized interactions. Haytu aims to map and understand these relationships by constructing a causal graph of events, identifying the cause-and-effect links between them.
Michel Bauwens: That makes sense. So, it’s about understanding the causality between events rather than just recording them as isolated transactions?
Jialin Li: Exactly. For example, in our discussion, your question about Haytu was triggered by my initial explanation. That’s a causal link. Haytu’s goal is to establish and analyze these links in a decentralized world.
This concept applies across various domains. One application is AI development—where people contribute data, refine algorithms, and improve models based on prior work. Another application is scientific research, where discoveries are not isolated but emerge from collaboration, data sharing, and peer reviews.
Scientific breakthroughs, for instance, don’t just happen because one person has a brilliant idea. They result from datasets, previous research, peer evaluations, and collaboration. Haytu aims to capture these relationships in a structured way, creating a comprehensive view of how decentralized knowledge and innovation evolve.
Michel Bauwens raises an important point about informal, non-digital interactions and their role in influence and decision-making. Jialin LI acknowledges this challenge, pointing out that their approach does not claim to solve all issues. Instead, they recognize the inherent difficulty in tracking influence outside of digital systems—what Jialin refers to as a "loss of influence." While current causal models can capture structured, digital interactions, they struggle with informal, interpersonal exchanges like water cooler conversations or private phone calls. Expanding the system to include more causal relationships is a long-term goal, but it will take time to achieve comprehensive coverage.
Jialin envisions a progressively expanding causal graph that maps contributions and influences more extensively. The ultimate objective is to build a decentralized system that allows reasoning about contribution, making previously invisible inputs more visible and accountable. Michel Bauwens finds this approach compelling, as it aligns with his broader vision of shifting from a commodity-based system to a contributory system. He critiques capitalism for externalizing costs onto society and the environment, making essential contributions—such as care work and ecological sustainability—economically invisible. He argues that recognizing these contributions is vital to long-term stability and fairness.
Web3, according to Bauwens, is already making strides toward this recognition through public goods funding and decentralized governance models. He emphasizes the importance of networks structured around commons-based infrastructure, where collective resources strengthen all participants. Stronger networks, in turn, become more competitive, innovative, and resilient. Jialin agrees, noting that Web3’s transparency and verifiability offer an advantage in tracking and rewarding contributions fairly, without central control.
The discussion then shifts to the concept of intersubjectivity. Bauwens references Ken Wilber’s quadrants, distinguishing between subjective (individual experience), objective (physical reality), intersubjective (shared cultural norms), and interobjective (systemic structures). He is particularly interested in whether Jialin’s use of "intersubjective" refers to qualitative, meaning-based interactions or if it remains primarily quantitative. Bauwens argues that an overemphasis on quantification can strip away the richness of human experience, which is deeply influenced by unconscious assumptions and projections—issues that are especially problematic in social media dynamics.
Intersubjective Consensus and Cultural Framing
Jialin Li introduces the idea that certain truths exist not because they are objectively true, but because social conventions dictate them as such. Language serves as a prime example of this intersubjective consensus, where shared agreements enable communication and mutual understanding.
Michel Bauwens expands on this by illustrating how cultural differences influence perception. He references a study on eye-tracking, which suggests that Chinese individuals tend to scan an entire scene before focusing on a central object, whereas Westerners fixate on the main subject first. This variation in visual processing, he argues, is linked to language structure—ideographic versus alphabetic writing systems—which shape cognitive frameworks. He suggests that language constraints affect what people can conceptualize, thereby making culture a key determinant in perception.
Jialin acknowledges this point, emphasizing that social convention is inherently intersubjective. This principle is central to HA2, as it aims to structure decentralized reasoning through intersubjective consensus. Since many aspects of blockchain environments are subjective, HA2 leverages intersubjectivity to establish agreements in decentralized settings.
Communicating the Vision of HA2
Bauwens proposes publishing this discussion on his Substack, believing that a broader audience would benefit from understanding HA2’s conceptual framework. He highlights the need for clearer, non-technical communication about HA2’s motivations to engage a wider Web3 audience. Jialin agrees, recognizing the value of producing more explanatory content on the philosophical underpinnings of HA2.
HA2’s Approach to Intersubjective Consensus
Jialin explains that HA2 constructs intersubjective consensus by leveraging causality. The protocol employs causal graphs to trace the development of ideas, showing how discussions and contributions build upon each other. If an idea has widespread participation and approval, it signifies strong intersubjective consensus. Conversely, ideas with limited engagement reflect weaker consensus. This causal mapping enables decentralized reasoning by making subjective agreement processes transparent and structured.
HA2’s Infrastructure and Ethereum Integration
Bauwens inquires about the practical implementation of HA2. Jialin clarifies that HA2 is an infrastructure project with its own blockchain, validators, and applications. When asked how HA2 connects to existing blockchains like Ethereum, Jialin explains that HA2 integrates with Ethereum via Eigenlayer, an Ethereum-based security and staking mechanism.
Bauwens, recognizing the significance of this connection, recalls meeting key figures in the Eigenlayer ecosystem. He expresses surprise at HA2’s involvement and acknowledges its place within the broader Ethereum ecosystem. He then seeks a more concrete understanding of how HA2 functions in practice, setting the stage for further discussion on its real-world applications.
Jialin acknowledges that their background is rooted in computer science and may not be as philosophically nuanced. From a computational perspective, subjectivity is often viewed as the opposite of objectivity—where objective statements have clear truth values, while subjective ones depend on interpretation. Intersubjectivity, then, refers to the process by which subjective statements gain social validation through discourse and consensus. Jialin’s approach sees intersubjectivity as a structured process of social influence, where collective agreement helps shape perceptions of truth.
AI-Focused Go-To-Market Strategy: Model DAO
To make Haytu's impact more tangible and actionable, the go-to-market strategy is centered around an AI-focused initiative called Model DAO. The core objective of this initiative is to facilitate the creation, governance, and monetization of AI models, particularly in an open-source environment where profitability has traditionally been challenging.
Addressing AI Model Monetization Challenges
Many developers and researchers contribute to the evolution of AI models, but monetizing these contributions remains difficult. The Model DAO approach provides a comprehensive platform and infrastructure for launching AI models. This includes:
Infrastructure support for deploying models, including access to necessary computational resources.
Tokenized assets that allow for seamless monetization and incentive structures.
Governance mechanisms to ensure fair distribution of value among contributors.
However, merely launching models is not sufficient. AI models are inherently aggregations of knowledge, built upon previous ideas and technologies. Recognizing and rewarding these dependencies is crucial for a sustainable ecosystem.
Evolution of Intelligence: A Networked Approach
AI development can be seen as an evolutionary process, akin to the progression of human intelligence. New models are built on foundational architectures like transformers and deep learning frameworks. The Model DAO framework acknowledges this evolutionary nature by mapping contributions at multiple levels:
Historical Contributions: Tracing the lineage of ideas and algorithms that influence new models.
Resource Contributions: Recognizing the individuals and organizations that provide training data, computing power (e.g., GPUs), and other essential inputs.
Causality Graph: Mapping Contributions and Influence
To ensure that all contributors are fairly recognized and rewarded, Haytu employs a causality graph that visualizes and traces how different contributions lead to the development of AI models. This graph captures:
Direct contributions, such as coding new model architectures.
Indirect contributions, such as providing training datasets or computational resources.
Knowledge propagation, where insights and innovations are built upon previous discoveries.
By leveraging watermarking technology, the system tracks how knowledge is transferred and evolved. Instead of analyzing the content of contributions directly, the system focuses on relationships—ensuring that intellectual and technical inputs are accounted for within the broader AI ecosystem.
Assessing Contribution Impact
One of the ongoing challenges is determining the relative importance of different contributions. While Haytu can track participation within the causality graph, evaluating the significance of each contribution remains an evolving aspect of the system. Potential solutions include:
Community-driven evaluations, where stakeholders collectively assess and validate contributions.
Automated influence metrics, where engagement and model success are factored into contribution weighting.
Hybrid models, combining subjective assessments with objective computational analysis.
Currently, Haytu's approach is to track and record contributions, with further refinements in progress to measure their impact effectively.
Model DAO is not just a technical infrastructure but a new paradigm for AI model development, incentivization, and governance. By making contribution tracking more explicit and transparent, Haytu aims to foster a more collaborative and equitable AI ecosystem.
Michel Bauwens (50:08) That's a very difficult question. A long time ago, I participated in an experiment with O Net. The Omidyar Foundation launched an initiative where instead of NGOs deciding who to fund, a community of activists and advocates would self-evaluate each other, and at the end of the process, the money would be distributed accordingly.
Jialin Li (50:39) Right.
Michel Bauwens (50:40) But within just a few weeks, the system was already completely corrupted. People were trading favors—"I'll say good things about you if you say good things about me." It became totally gamed and, honestly, pretty disgusting very quickly. It just didn't work.
And it's a complicated problem. I find myself in an opposite situation—many people tell me I've inspired them, which is great to hear, but that kind of recognition doesn’t necessarily translate into making a living. There's no direct connection between appreciation and sustainable financial support.
Jialin Li (51:32) Right.
Michel Bauwens (51:33) So far, we don’t have techniques that can make that connection real, and even if we did, we’d have to be very careful about preventing gaming. Once people understand how a system works, they’ll inevitably find ways to manipulate it.
Jialin Li (51:54) Right.
Michel Bauwens (51:55) That's why I don’t believe this can be solved purely in a digital space. In the end, a lot of these processes happen in real life—people meet, talk, and reach intersubjective consensus through facilitation techniques.
Jialin Li (52:28) Yeah.
Michel Bauwens (52:29) And while that’s different from what you’re doing, there is a lot of intersubjective consensus-building in real life.
Jialin Li (52:36) Right.
Michel Bauwens (52:36) Many people are working on ways to facilitate good meetings, draw meaningful conclusions, and ensure that agreements are actually implemented. There’s a whole field of intersubjectivity that hasn’t been digitized, and these two worlds—digital and non-digital—rarely intersect.
Jialin Li (52:53) They really don’t.
Michel Bauwens (52:53) They operate separately.
Jialin Li (52:57) Yeah.
Michel Bauwens (52:57) And you're working in the digital sphere, particularly through blockchain applications.
Jialin Li (53:02) Right.
Michel Bauwens (53:03) That said, this conversation has already been really useful for me. I’d still like to learn more at some point—specifically about the technical aspects, like how exactly you're implementing this—but I think this has been a good session.
Claire (53:40) Yeah, we’ve already been on for about an hour.
Michel Bauwens (53:46) And I need to go in about seven minutes.
Claire (53:49) Right. If you’d like to schedule a follow-up meeting, we could go deeper into the technical details, and Jialin could provide more background.
Michel Bauwens (54:02) That sounds good. You could also send me some reading materials first, and I’ll go through them on my own. Then, when we meet again, we can have a more in-depth discussion. I imagine for Jialin, a lot of this is basic knowledge, but for me, this has been a very enlightening conversation.
Jialin Li (54:20) Yeah, I found it inspiring as well. This was a really productive discussion.
Michel Bauwens (54:28) I definitely feel like I understand a lot more than I did before.
Jialin Li (54:34) Yeah. Are you planning to go to Denver?
Michel Bauwens (54:37) No, it’s too short of a trip for me. It’s a 36-hour flight each way, just for a few days. What I am looking for, though, is funding to go to Taiwan at the end of April. There’s an event—ETH Taipei, among others—and I’d like to be there.
Also, my book Peer to Peer: The Commons Manifesto has been translated into Chinese. The translation is done; I just need to write a foreword to update it since the book was originally published in 2018. The idea is to do a speaking tour in Taiwan at the end of April and then visit mainland China in the summer. I’ve been in contact with the 706 Movement—the community organizing cultural events in private spaces in China—and I plan to do a tour there as well.
But the people in Taiwan have had some difficulty securing public funding for my trip. So, if you know of any possible funding sources, that would be really helpful. And if you have connections in Taiwan, we could even organize an event together—perhaps a discussion on intersubjectivity, where I present the philosophical side and you present the digital side.
I’m also talking to Vivian Chen—she’s quite influential in Taiwan—as well as someone in the digital ministry. You know Audrey Tang, right? Taiwan has this digital democracy platform… I can’t remember the English name of it right now.
Jialin Li (57:47) Yeah, I know what you mean. That all sounds really interesting.
Michel Bauwens (57:49) Yes, and in the short term, we could start by working with the transcript from this conversation. I’ll publish it on my Substack, maybe adding some context in an introduction. That way, people can engage with our discussion.
Jialin Li (58:22) That makes sense. I think it would be a great idea.
Michel Bauwens (58:22) And beyond that, we could explore a dialogue between the digital and non-digital worlds. There are prominent thinkers in intersubjectivity from fields like philosophy, spirituality, and humanistic sciences. If you’re interested, I could recommend some people for high-level discussions with you.
Claire (59:02) Sure.
Michel Bauwens (59:03) We could even do a sponsored podcast series—discussions between these experts and one of you. It would be great for the He2 protocol’s image, showing that you’re open-minded and willing to engage with different perspectives. Blockchain solutions don’t always translate perfectly outside the blockchain world, and bridging that gap could be really valuable.
Jialin Li (59:47) Right.
Michel Bauwens (59:47) People think differently depending on their background and experiences, so if you want to reach a broader audience, it helps to engage with these diverse perspectives.
Claire (59:57) That’s a great idea. We could start planning a podcast series.
Michel Bauwens (1:00:32) We could set up a Google Doc to brainstorm ideas and take it from there.
Claire (1:00:38) Sure! I’ll also follow up on Telegram. Next week, we’ll be in Denver, so we can find a good time to connect.
Michel Bauwens (1:00:57) That sounds good. If I were to go to Denver, I’d prefer a longer stay—at least a week or 10 days.
Claire (1:01:07) That would work! We’ll be in a co-working space from February 24th to March 2nd.
Michel Bauwens (1:01:17) That’s really soon. Let’s discuss it further on Telegram and see if it’s feasible.
Claire (1:01:26) Yes, for sure.
Jialin Li (1:01:29) Sounds great. Thanks, Michel!
Michel Bauwens (1:01:30) Thank you all—it was a great conversation. I really appreciate your time and insights.
Claire (1:01:39) Likewise! I learned a lot as well.
Michel Bauwens (1:01:43) Take care, everyone!
Jialin Li (1:01:47) Bye!