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=History=
'''1. Morgoth:'''
"The birth of the modern nation-state in Europe is commonly held to be the Peace of Westphalia, which predates the French Revolution by 141 years. Moreover, it can also be argued that the Peace of Westphalia, which formalised boundaries, created the conditions for the Enlightenment and, therefore, the French Revolution rather than being a product of it. De Jouvenel writes that, far from diminishing the state, the French Revolution supercharged it by claiming everything within it as a resource to such an extent it would have made the kings of old blush. Thus, Napoleon was able to raise army after army and confront nigh-on all other great powers alone.
In place of the “Great Chain of Being” would be patriotism, rights, and a constitution. Identity would be inextricably intertwined with the nation rather than religion, province, or a local baron or lord. In the French National Assembly, the revolutionaries sat on the left side of the chamber and the monarchists on the right; our modern understanding of left and right originates here and forms the basis of the argument that Nationalism is left-wing.
It is worth highlighting here that establishing the modern nation-state with a bureaucracy and colossal quantities of men and equipment at its disposal incentivised neighbouring nations to form yet more formalised national states lest they be crushed. Slowly but surely, the pieces were being placed on the board for the cataclysmic wars of the 20th Century — and, therefore, the modern liberal disdain for Nationalism. Yet, it is commonly forgotten that, for much of that era, the liberal and “progressive” view was to carve out sovereign states for particular ethnic groups because such policies were the most rational and trouble-free.
There is, then, more than an element of truth to the claim that Nationalism is, historically, a left-wing ideology.
Yet it also remains the case that today, Nationalism is regarded as far-right, and framing Nationalism as left-wing does not reflect the reality of the 21st Century."
(https://morgoth.substack.com/p/nationalism-in-the-21st-century)




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==Origins of the Nation-State==
==Origins of the Nation-State==


==The Emergence of the [[Nation-State]]==
[[Kojin Karatani]], chapter nine:
 
Kojin Karatini, chapter nine:


"The nation-state is a coupling together of two elements with different
"The nation-state is a coupling together of two elements with different
natures: nation and state. Th e nation-state’s emergence, however,
natures: nation and state. The nation-state’s emergence, however,
requires the previous appearance of capital-state — that is, a
requires the previous appearance of capital-state — that is, a
coupling of capital with state. Th is was achieved with the absolute
coupling of capital with state. This was achieved with the absolute
monarchies. I have already described the situation of the social formation
monarchies. I have already described the situation of the social formation
under absolute monarchies, in which previously dominant
under absolute monarchies, in which previously dominant
Line 22: Line 35:
appears within the social formation as an attempt to recover, through
appears within the social formation as an attempt to recover, through
imagination, mode of exchange A and community, which is disintegrating
imagination, mode of exchange A and community, which is disintegrating
under the rule of capital- state. Th e nation is formed by
under the rule of capital-state. The nation is formed by
capital-state, but it is at the same time a form of protest and resistance
capital-state, but it is at the same time a form of protest and resistance
to the conditions brought about by capital-state, as well as an
to the conditions brought about by capital-state, as well as an
attempt to supplement for what is lacking in capital-state.
attempt to supplement for what is lacking in capital-state.


The sensibility of the nation is grounded in blood- lineage, regional,
The sensibility of the nation is grounded in blood-lineage, regional,
and linguistic communities. None of these, however, possesses the
and linguistic communities. None of these, however, possesses the
secret of the nation: the nation does not form simply because of the existence
secret of the nation: the nation does not form simply because of the existence
Line 36: Line 49:




[[Category:Politics]]
==The Nation-State vs [[Subsidiarity]]==
 
< ''A thick anthropological understanding of subsidiarity is simply not compatible with the cultural hegemony of the modern nation or the political hegemony of the modern state''. >
 
 
Andrew Willard Jones:
 
 
"we must explore
 
 
* the historical genesis of the modern “nation” itself.
 
As historians have definitively demonstrated, the construction of the modern nation was integral to the construction of the modern, sovereign, administrative state and the industrial economic system that accompanied it. The modern nation was formed not only through the destruction of the unifying structures of Christendom, but also through the destruction of the diversity of sub-cultures that made up the complex structures of pre-modern societies. Divorce from supra-national order was simultaneously homogenization of intra-national order. It was these two movements that created the cultural thing that is the modern nation and both these movements occurred through the construction and agency of the modern state. The fragmentation of Christendom and the consolidation of the nation-states was one historical dynamic. The modern nation as a self-sufficient cultural unit is inseparable from the modern state as a self-sufficient political unit; they are the same historical phenomenon. In modern nationalism, the individual’s relationship to the nation is not mediated by “thick” social structures – such as the family – which always have cultural content native to them. Rather, the individual as Frenchman, as Englishman, as German, is formed in direct relationship with the nation as a whole, a formation that is accomplished through centralized educational, political, economic, and media apparatuses.[28] Real cultural structures that subsist within the nation must be either derivative of and subsidiary to the nation or else a threat to the nation’s claim to seamless extension across the social and geographical field. What we might call the nation’s “cultural sovereignty”  is directly parallel to its corresponding state’s political sovereignty, which ultimately must be unitary and logically prior to all other nodes of authority.
 
 
To the extent this description is accurate, then “the nation” cannot be treated as a synonym for “the people” as understood by the Church. I began this talk with the foundational observation of John Paul II that both the family and the people are natural to humanity as such. What we mean by “the people,” then, must include essentially what we mean by “the family.” And the family is certainly not posterior to the state. Rather, a proper people and a proper politics flows out of proper families without competition between them. And the same holds true of other forms of social solidarity that stand between the family and the state.
 
 
A thick anthropological understanding of subsidiarity is simply not compatible with the cultural hegemony of the modern nation or the political hegemony of the modern state."


[[Category:P2P Theory]]
(https://newpolity.com/blog/is-christianity-nationalist)


[[Category:P2P State Approaches]]
[[Category:P2P_State_Approaches]]
[[Category:P2P_Theory]]
[[Category:Politics]]

Latest revision as of 07:41, 9 August 2025

History

1. Morgoth:

"The birth of the modern nation-state in Europe is commonly held to be the Peace of Westphalia, which predates the French Revolution by 141 years. Moreover, it can also be argued that the Peace of Westphalia, which formalised boundaries, created the conditions for the Enlightenment and, therefore, the French Revolution rather than being a product of it. De Jouvenel writes that, far from diminishing the state, the French Revolution supercharged it by claiming everything within it as a resource to such an extent it would have made the kings of old blush. Thus, Napoleon was able to raise army after army and confront nigh-on all other great powers alone.

In place of the “Great Chain of Being” would be patriotism, rights, and a constitution. Identity would be inextricably intertwined with the nation rather than religion, province, or a local baron or lord. In the French National Assembly, the revolutionaries sat on the left side of the chamber and the monarchists on the right; our modern understanding of left and right originates here and forms the basis of the argument that Nationalism is left-wing.

It is worth highlighting here that establishing the modern nation-state with a bureaucracy and colossal quantities of men and equipment at its disposal incentivised neighbouring nations to form yet more formalised national states lest they be crushed. Slowly but surely, the pieces were being placed on the board for the cataclysmic wars of the 20th Century — and, therefore, the modern liberal disdain for Nationalism. Yet, it is commonly forgotten that, for much of that era, the liberal and “progressive” view was to carve out sovereign states for particular ethnic groups because such policies were the most rational and trouble-free.

There is, then, more than an element of truth to the claim that Nationalism is, historically, a left-wing ideology.

Yet it also remains the case that today, Nationalism is regarded as far-right, and framing Nationalism as left-wing does not reflect the reality of the 21st Century."

(https://morgoth.substack.com/p/nationalism-in-the-21st-century)


Discussion

Origins of the Nation-State

Kojin Karatani, chapter nine:

"The nation-state is a coupling together of two elements with different natures: nation and state. The nation-state’s emergence, however, requires the previous appearance of capital-state — that is, a coupling of capital with state. This was achieved with the absolute monarchies. I have already described the situation of the social formation under absolute monarchies, in which previously dominant mode of exchange B was transformed by the impact of the emerging dominance of mode of exchange C. The nation appeared after this in the bourgeois revolutions that toppled the absolute monarchy.

To put this somewhat schematically, the nation is something that appears within the social formation as an attempt to recover, through imagination, mode of exchange A and community, which is disintegrating under the rule of capital-state. The nation is formed by capital-state, but it is at the same time a form of protest and resistance to the conditions brought about by capital-state, as well as an attempt to supplement for what is lacking in capital-state.

The sensibility of the nation is grounded in blood-lineage, regional, and linguistic communities. None of these, however, possesses the secret of the nation: the nation does not form simply because of the existence of such communities. The nation appears only aft er the emergence of capital-state."

See: Evolution of the Structure of World History Through Modes of Exchange


The Nation-State vs Subsidiarity

< A thick anthropological understanding of subsidiarity is simply not compatible with the cultural hegemony of the modern nation or the political hegemony of the modern state. >


Andrew Willard Jones:


"we must explore


  • the historical genesis of the modern “nation” itself.

As historians have definitively demonstrated, the construction of the modern nation was integral to the construction of the modern, sovereign, administrative state and the industrial economic system that accompanied it. The modern nation was formed not only through the destruction of the unifying structures of Christendom, but also through the destruction of the diversity of sub-cultures that made up the complex structures of pre-modern societies. Divorce from supra-national order was simultaneously homogenization of intra-national order. It was these two movements that created the cultural thing that is the modern nation and both these movements occurred through the construction and agency of the modern state. The fragmentation of Christendom and the consolidation of the nation-states was one historical dynamic. The modern nation as a self-sufficient cultural unit is inseparable from the modern state as a self-sufficient political unit; they are the same historical phenomenon. In modern nationalism, the individual’s relationship to the nation is not mediated by “thick” social structures – such as the family – which always have cultural content native to them. Rather, the individual as Frenchman, as Englishman, as German, is formed in direct relationship with the nation as a whole, a formation that is accomplished through centralized educational, political, economic, and media apparatuses.[28] Real cultural structures that subsist within the nation must be either derivative of and subsidiary to the nation or else a threat to the nation’s claim to seamless extension across the social and geographical field. What we might call the nation’s “cultural sovereignty” is directly parallel to its corresponding state’s political sovereignty, which ultimately must be unitary and logically prior to all other nodes of authority.


To the extent this description is accurate, then “the nation” cannot be treated as a synonym for “the people” as understood by the Church. I began this talk with the foundational observation of John Paul II that both the family and the people are natural to humanity as such. What we mean by “the people,” then, must include essentially what we mean by “the family.” And the family is certainly not posterior to the state. Rather, a proper people and a proper politics flows out of proper families without competition between them. And the same holds true of other forms of social solidarity that stand between the family and the state.


A thick anthropological understanding of subsidiarity is simply not compatible with the cultural hegemony of the modern nation or the political hegemony of the modern state."

(https://newpolity.com/blog/is-christianity-nationalist)