[p2p-research] Building Alliances
michelsub2004 at gmail.com
Sat Nov 7 06:58:02 CET 2009
I think that as an avowed neoliberal (your own words once), your position is
influenced by the collapse of the neoliberal world and its assumptions, and
that since we need to go to alternative directions, it makes you
uncomfortable that people are looking to the ones you have an instinctive
dislike for, because you associate them with certain historical memories.
But there is no necessary cause and effect relation between the increase in
the power of civil society, and totalitarian statism.
My version of P2P Theory, for whatever is worth, is not collapsing, but
being discussed from various points of view, and that is very healthy. But
beyond the debate on this lists, which is not to be confused with P2P
Theory, common ground is increasingly found in social movements around p2p
themes, and people are coalescing around concrete work. I've witnessed it
twice in the recent week, at the Free Culture Forum, and at our own Media
Ecologies workshop. People in the field seem quite optimistic, because
despite their differences, they are constructing around their commonalities.
I feel that most of my own, admittedly limited predicitons, have so far been
borne out, and not invalidated, thougn I keep an open mind about it. I'd
like to use a personal experience about movie making ... Making it is
absolute chaos and mired in human conflict, yet when the work is done, say
like Apocalypse now, there is a cultural monument and social artefact
standing, that others use and can build on. The chaos is only apparent, and
underneath, chaordic processes are creating new realities. In any case, my
method is to base myself on intensive observation of what people are doing,
and to draw certain conclusions from that. Of course, selection biases may
occur, the biggest danger for me being extrapolating minority emergences
with likely general trends affecting the mainstream. On this, I take bets,
and so far, they have been borne out. However, because like everyone else I
am fallible, my insurance policy is to act as a documentarian, so that the
same information is available to others, and can be used independently. That
way, even if I were totally wrong, the errors would still be productive. In
any case, what you see as a mess, I see as pluralism, and it is unavoidable
in an open forum.
This list is simply a tool, where people can clarify their own thoughts by
exchange and confrontation with others. Of course, it also confuses, but
that confusion itself can be very productive.
One more thing, you are always assuming that most people here are
socialists, but who are they: are sam, paul h, paul f, socialists? what
about stan? Kevin Carson, whom you seem to appreciate most, is closest to it
with his radical libertarianism. So, let's be explicit about it, who are
those socialists, where are they?
As for von Hippel, before him preciously few people recognized the power of
social innovation by users, it still seems a pretty fundamental contribution
for me, especially as he saw it years before others started acknowledging
On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:51 AM, Ryan Lanham <rlanham1963 at gmail.com> wrote:
> You make the same point I am trying to make. First, I would agree Julia
> Lane who seems to make the obvious point...which makes this discussion
> thread between J Andrew Rogers and Michel hard to make sense of when
> Second, it begs the question, what is innovation at all?...Which is your
> endpoint as I understand it. Without an answer to that question, discussing
> whether VCs are succeeding or not in advancing it seems impossible.
> I think the same holds for P2P, by the way. Because the political theory
> of P2P is increasingly disintegrating, discussing its direction, meaning,
> values or purpose is increasingly like discussing whether or not VCs help
> innovation. It is the land of unspecified terms--in short, a mess. For a
> while it looked like P2P was something...now it seems to be melting rapidly
> either into conventional socialism or a thread on post-scarcity which is
> interesting, but not P2P either.
> Innovation theorists so often now turn to Von Hippel at MIT. I remember
> reading his book a few years ago and thinking...what is he even talking
> about? I don't see where we've moved the ball.
> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 7:23 PM, Stan Rhodes <stanleyrhodes at gmail.com>wrote:
>> J. Andrew Rogers,
>> I agree with most of what you say, and think Michel is being a bit too
>> free in making assumptions about your position. I do have a few points of
>> contention with your reply. Forgive the length, I will try to be concise.
>> First, the economics of R&D from basic to applied, along with gains in
>> productivity and earnings, do not seem to be well understood or agreed-upon
>> at all. I recall a recent Science magazine podcast interview with Julia
>> Lane, Program Director of the Science of Science and Innovation Policy
>> (SciSIP) of the NSF. The June 5th show. Here is an an excerpt from the
>> Robert Frederick: Is there any consensus on how to calculate the return on
>> investment when the investment is in scientific research?
>> Julia Lane: No.
>> Robert Frederick: Does that go for basic, translational, and applied
>> scientific research?
>> Julia Lane: Yes. In other words, there is no consensus. I think there’s an
>> evolving set of approaches, but it’s still very much at the early stages. I
>> imagine it’s kind of at the stage – if you were a life scientist we’re kind
>> of at the Charles Darwin stage.
>> As the program director, I suspect she has a pretty good view of the big
>> picture, so I'm inclined to believe her basic conclusion of uncertainty
>> about it all. In attempting to review the literature I came to the same
>> Discussing "value," as in research that creates "relatively little value,"
>> you are mostly referring to "monetized value." How else does one measure
>> the aggregate output results? There's no easier measuring stick, but
>> obviously the inability to measure the positive externalities causes huge
>> omissions when assessing "value," versus directly "monetized value" via
>> business. You later say that some government-funded research is "valuable"
>> because it wouldn't otherwise be done. I agree, but you can see the problem
>> with different uses of the term "value."
>> The problem with "value" highlights a problem in your use of phrases like
>> "highly productive." Overall, the productivity is unclear. Obviously, a
>> company finding a solution--or likely solution--from the research pool is
>> likely quite productive for them specifically. That provides no insight
>> into the pool, however, unless we assume companies can somehow "drive" R&D
>> progress toward solutions to some extent. I am skeptical of that view (not
>> saying it's yours), and don't know of any solid evidence backs it up. I
>> suppose it's a sort of seed-versus-nuture argument. A sprout may appear,
>> and grow vigorously with water and sun, but that doesn't mean a lot of water
>> and sun on a spot with no seed will make a sprout appear.
>> The second major point of contention is related to the above. You mention
>> the lack of innovation in Web 2.0, and that it's mostly a phenomenon of
>> cheap bandwith. However, I don't see how using cheap bandwidth in new ways
>> isn't innovation. Perhaps what "innovation" means needs to be clarified,
>> but I only want to submit that you are being too exclusionary in your
>> analysis. If new networks of communication sprout from general creativity
>> and cheap bandwith, and are used by thousands, or even millions, of people,
>> we can reasonably assume the socioeconomic impact is tremendous. We may not
>> know what that impact is, or how to measure it, or even if it's all
>> "positive," but it's there.
>> To clarify with some adhoc terms, technological innovation may be the
>> solving of major technical problems, but what about sociotechnological
>> innovation that enables users to communicate more, or more efficiently, or
>> lowers the barriers to entry for new users? These effects cannot be left
>> out, even if they are hard to measure. Is making a technology more
>> "adoptable" applied R&D? Is it just "development?" Semantics, but
>> necessary ones.
>> -- Stan
>> liberally snipped original post below...
>> On Fri, Nov 6, 2009 at 2:44 PM, J. Andrew Rogers <reality.miner at gmail.com
>> > wrote:
>>> R&D is hopefully about maximizing useful output for the money spent in
>>> aggregate, not R&D theater. Productivity of R&D varies widely by
>>> country and source. China spends less on R&D than Japan, but an
>>> argument can be made that it is rapidly becoming more productive.
>>> You are misunderstanding that metric. R&D productivity has nothing to
>>> do with the riskiness or failure rate, but the aggregate output of
>>> useful results for the amount of money spent. In that regard,
>>> privately funded R&D is extremely productive, primarily because it
>>> does not have the "grant mill" phenomenon that you see with government
>>> funding that spends a lot of money on research activity but produces
>>> relatively little value in many cases. However, the government R&D
>>> funding is valuable insofar as it funds some topics that are unlikely
>>> to see much private research funding. That said, a rapidly growing
>>> phenomenon in the US is private research foundations which take on
>>> "basic science" type research but which are also more results
>>> The truth is more complicated than this. Government R&D funding is
>>> almost entirely captured by large corporate interests, so they have in
>>> effect "out-sourced" their R&D budgets to the taxpayer but still do
>>> the R&D work internally. Since it is not their money per se, they can
>>> afford to be more wasteful with it.
>>> That said, the vast majority of applied R&D is still privately funded
>>> and highly productive. It has to be, since most of the small
>>> innovative companies do not have the ability to obtain government R&D
>>> funding. Small companies *are* where most of the innovation occurs,
>>> but those companies are forced to use private sources of R&D funding
>>> so it is difficult to make the argument that government R&D is paying
>>> for most real innovation in many market sectors unless only big
>>> corporations innovate.
>>> I would agree with the assertion that there are certain classes of
>>> objectively sound venture investments that almost never get made in
>>> the VC market. These are almost universally areas that are extremely
>>> technical such that no one in the finance community can understand
>>> them, but there is little R&D funding for extremely technical topics
>>> generally outside of academic environments or very large companies.
>>> While it is true that Web 2.0 is not capital intensive, very little of
>>> Web 2.0 is "innovative" by the usual definition of the word.
>>> If any of the Web 2.0 companies had solved one of the major technical
>>> problems underlying many use cases for Web 2.0 infrastructure, they
>>> *would* have been innovative but they also would have been a lot more
>>> capital intensive.
>>> Indeed, Web 2.0 is very limited because of this lack of innovation.
>>> Twitter has not solved the constraint-indexing problem required for
>>> useful, scalable real-time search; FaceBook has not solved the
>>> self-join problem of graph databases; Amazon has not solved the
>>> relational analytics problem of distributed key-value stores; Google
>>> has not solved the problem of indexing spatial data types; etc. These
>>> would be landscape altering innovations because you could build Web
>>> 2.0 applications that are impossible today. Web 2.0 is marked by a
>>> complete lack of significant technological innovation, being
>>> essentially slick versions of very old ideas.
>>> Putting a lot of very old social behaviors on the web may be
>>> convenient and even alter the dynamics of society, but that it did not
>>> require any recent innovation to occur, just cheap bandwidth.
>>> J. Andrew Rogers
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