[p2p-research] Life after capitalism

Michel Bauwens michelsub2004 at gmail.com
Sat Aug 15 13:10:37 CEST 2009

thanks for those precisions!

On Sat, Aug 15, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Christian Siefkes <christian at siefkes.net>wrote:

> Hi Michel, all,
> Michel Bauwens wrote:
> > I will republish it on the 14th,
> thanks!
> > do you see the contradiction in your last paragraph: you support market-
> > based open  manufacturing, yet oppose any effort to improve the
> > conditions in which this would occur?
> Open manufacturing has the effect of reducing our dependency on markets,
> just like free software. Proprietary hardware I can only buy from the
> manufacturer, there are no other options. But open source hardware I can
> buy
> from the original manufacturer, or I can ask an independent on-demand
> manufacturer to produce it, or can built it myself, alone or with friends
> or
> other interested parties -- the latter becomes realistic especially as
> decentralized free production places such as Fab Labs become available. As
> for inputs, as long as they aren't shared as commons (which would be
> preferable), there are still various options to get them: buy them, have
> someone donate them to you, steal them, recycle them from waste, find them
> (e.g. in the garbage), whatever...
> Clearly, open manufacturing alone does not make us completely independent
> from the market, but it's a start.
> > Unless you use open manufacturing in a way that it does not exist? But
> > since you also seem to oppose moneyless resource sharing?
> What makes you think so? I certainly don't.
> > Are you
> > opposed to the open source hardware bank of the Arduino community? Do
> > you prefer they would use capitalist banks instead?
> That doesn't look like a bank, but rather like a way to get distributed
> venture capital. If it works for the people and projects involved, why not?
> Why should I be against it?
> Of course, any money-based approach still has the problem that people who
> don't have the money can't get the products. That's inevitable, but as long
> as there are other options (e.g. produce the stuff yourself for [almost]
> free in a Fab Lab, or at least find some independent manufacturer who might
> make it cheaper), it's not so bad.
> As long as the desire/necessity to make money doesn't hurt the freedom of
> other potential manufacturers and users (e.g. by the open hardware project
> deliberately withholding information that is necessary for others to
> produce
> copies of the same quality), it's fine with me.
> > If not, what do you do in the meantime? Accept market-based
> > manufacturing as it now exists? Improve the conditions for such entities?
> If something is a good think (and OM certainly is), it's always helpful to
> improve the conditions for it. So, provided that something really helps,
> I'm all for it.
> Best regards
>        Christian
> --
> |-------- Dr. Christian Siefkes --------- christian at siefkes.net ---------
> |   Homepage: http://www.siefkes.net/   |   Blog: http://www.keimform.de/
> |   Better Bayesian Analysis:           |   Peer Production Everywhere:
> |   http://bart-project.com/            |   http://peerconomy.org/wiki/
> |------------------------------------------ OpenPGP Key ID: 0x346452D8 --
> People should not be afraid of their governments, governments should be
> afraid of their people.
>        -- V, in "V for Vendetta"

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